Interview with Congresswoman Ileana Ros Lehtinen
December 1, 2003
Conducted by Karen Garner, Florida International University


KG: I want to welcome Congresswoman Lehtinen and thank you for meeting with me to day and talking with me about your role as chair on the House International relations subcommittee on the Middle East and central Asia. We know that you’ve recently had a chance to go to Iraq and to meet with some women’s groups there as well as with U.S. troops from South Florida. When you traveled to Iraq in October what were some of the cities you visited and were there particular women’s groups you were in contact with?

IRL: Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this and congratulations on your conference. It’s bound to be a great success, so thank you for letting me be a part of this. We did have an opportunity to visit Iraq and it was an historic trip because it was an all-female Congressional delegation and our focus was on the role of women in the new Iraq, in a free and we hope democratic Iraq. Now what role can women play in the build up of civil society, and in education, in health, you name it, women can have an important role in every sphere of society. And as you know women did not have a role in the last years of Saddam Hussein’s reign. And so we wanted to encourage women to go to school, to get trained in different professions. We had an opportunity to visit two major cities—Baghdad and Mosul, in the northern part of Iraq. This is still a very unsafe environment. We met with women who were quite educated, the top scientists, the top ladies in their fields, and we met with the least educated ones in little towns who came to meet with us. And we encouraged them to run for public office in their local city councils, etc.,

KG: And what messages did the women who spoke to you want you to convey to the Coalition Provisional Authority? Did they have particular messages that they expressed as their needs and desires right now?

IRL: Absolutely. They were optimistic that they would have a real role to play in the new make up of Iraqi society. They were first of all afraid and apprehensive that the United States would leave too early, before the Iraqi people had really had a chance to take hold of their own destiny. There was a lot of fear and apprehension on the part of some women. Just by meeting with us was quite risky for some of them to participate in this conversation with us, so we thanked them for their time, and we know that there is nothing easy in Iraq. For us to have this conversation is totally risk free, but to have a similar conversation in Iraq for many of these women, their husbands were fearful that they were going to meet with us, their families were not happy that they were going to participate so it really was a problem.

KG: But they took the risk because they had particular things they wanted to share with you, a message they wanted to get out?

IRL: Absolutely. Their message was that they want a voice. They want the Coalition Authority to push the local officials to let women have a voice. Only with the Coalition forces nudging and nudging and nudging, as much as we can, because after all it is their country, do they think that women will be allowed to have a voice. They are fearful that they will not have a say in the running and development of the constitution, of the running of their country, the institutions. It’s a very difficult time, until this time next year, we just don’t know what will happen and what the role of women will be.

KG: Has Paul Bremmer told you what the Coalition’s plans are for involving women in the governing of Iraq.

IRL: Yes, at the time we were in Iraq Ambassador Bremmer was at the Donor’s Conference in Madrid, where we had pledges from other countries for the rebuilding of Iraq, so we were not able to meet with him “in-country” but we have had an opportunity to meet with him in Jordan, in Washington. When our delegation came back [to the U.S.] we had an opportunity to meet with Secretary Rumsfeld, as well as the Secretary of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you name it, we’ve had an opportunity to meet with the top folks to let them know what the women of Iraq were telling us. And in no way shape or form am I trying to say that we met with women in every sphere of Iraqi society, no, but the message we heard from both educated and not-so-educated women of Iraq was very clear--that they want a say, they want a role, they want to participate and they want us to help them get there. They don’t want us to pull back.

KG: Did Bremmer share with you any particular things that the Coalition Authority is doing to ensure that women have this role? I know that two women were appointed to the Iraqi Governing Council, well really three, but there was the terrible murder of one of these women earlier this year. . . Are there other kinds of measures the CPA has taken like that to appoint to take an active role?

IRL: He [Bremmer] says quite accurately that it is a touchy situation for them he feels that they have pushed as much as they can at the local levels and at all levels to be more inclusive. To allow women to participate, and to convince the Iraqis that it is to their benefit to have Iraqi women become more vocal and more active participants in the democracy process. He feels that there have been great strides in certain areas and are not going to be successful at all in certain regions. And he says we’ve got to look at the big picture. The big picture is that we’re trying to build up a democracy and there are times when you can push folks to the limit and still get no where. He thinks that we’ve done as good of a job as they can without forcing the Iraqis to accept a system that they will not tolerate. It’s a very touchy situation because of culture and religion and tradition, and the CPA knows our desire to have women participate more fully, but they have to live there. And they know the concerns on the ground. And there are some areas where don’t think that they can push any more.

KG: One of the things we [here in U.S.] read about a lot is the level of insecurity in Iraq, and that’s for everyone, but particularly for Iraqi women. What was your assessment in Mosul and Baghdad of the level of insecurity that Iraqi women face? And the fact that there is still resistance to the CPA that is being shown, and a general lawlessness in Iraq, and there is a resurgence of fundamentalist Islam. Do you see the level of security changing any time in the near future? Will it continue to be a very dangerous place?

IRL: Well that’s a great question because it is that juxtaposition of order and chaos occurring at the same time, and it doesn’t seem to be comfortable or look right, but you’ll see signs of daily life going on, normal hustle bustle of traffic, outdoor cafes, stores are reopening, men and women are walking outside, children are going to school, at the same time there is a great fear and insecurity. There is a problem for women’s safety. Women feel like they are taking two steps forward and three steps back, because in some areas they are going back to a time when more rigid, traditional mindset for roles for traditional male and female are setting in. And this is certainly not what they wanted, and so there is a great deal of frustration, and we felt that; it was quite palpable, the level of insecurity, the worry about where their country is headed and what their role will be in this new Iraq.

KG: But women were out on the streets? You saw that? Were they with male escorts? Did you see any women unaccompanied during the daylight hours, at least?

IRL: When we visited a hospital I guess that is the “no-escort” zone, and women were very free to walk around the hospitals with their babies and their children in the hospitals and clinics that we visited. So I think it depends on the area where you’re at, and the city where you’re at, and the tone at the moment. Things seem to be ever-shifting in Iraq—at a moment’s notice. That’s both good and bad.

KG: I think soon after you returned to the U.S., Congress approved the $87.5 billion appropriations bill to dedicate funds for the reconstruction of both Afghanistan and Iraq. I was curious about your assessment of the level of funds that are dedicated to women’s programs, and to providing funds for women’s education etc., are going to meet the needs that are there? What we’ve seen in terms of the published budget is that $10 million of the $87.5 billion that is dedicated specifically for women’s programs in Iraq.

IRL: That’s right. We did want to make sure that there was some attention paid specifically for women’s programs in Iraq, and its not enough. But since the majority of Iraqi society is women, we feel that whatever benefits the Iraqi society will, in turn, benefit the Iraqi women. That may not necessarily hold true. We will have to soon see whether that holds true, whether that is an accurate assessment. And should we have tried to pigeonhole and earmark more money directly benefiting women, knowing that within the confines of their ability to spend and operate in Iraq, how much of that was do-able? So, at least we dedicated a certain pool. It’s not all we wanted, but it is targeted and we hope that All of it will end up benefiting women, but a lot will depend on the make-up of that new Iraqi society and the role that women will play in it.

KG: Do you know if there are any particular women’s programs that will teach women political organizing skills, for example, and how to educate themselves in terms of a political system so that they can get involved so that they can get involved and become active decision, makers, as elected officials perhaps?

IRL: Well, we did meet with some women who expressed a great deal of interest in becoming active participants in the democracy process. The women in the Iraqi Council we met with, the ones who are part of the city councils in different cities, we met with them, and the ones that want to hold office in the future. Both the department of state and USAID specifically have wonderful programs geared toward empowering women and we hope that when they receive the funding they so desperately need that they will continue to do the great job that they are doing—Charlie, and Paula, and Secretary Powell, all are doing a great job to make sure that women get special attention with all these programs. And holding public office is certainly a dream that we have for the women of Iraq.

KG: One other thing in terms of women in government, the new Iraqi constitution that is being talked about, and now trying to make decisions about who will actually draft that constitution, are Iraqi women expressing concern about the drafting of this constitution? And is there knowledge or awareness about what has occurred in Afghanistan about what has been proposed there and will be voted on later this month [December 2003]? And at least at this stage it looks like the drafting committee is going to be composed of all men, and there is lots of talk among the Muslim clerics, particularly Ayatolla Sistani, who wants to make sure that there is direct democracy, and voting, to decide who gets to draft the constitution. Are women concerned that they are going to get left out of the process?

IRL: Definitely. Women are concerned that they will be left out of the process. They are frustrated, they are fearful. But there are some hopeful signs. They are making some inroads. And to go from nothing to everything is a big step. So sometimes step one is a big enough step in itself. So let’s get to that step, and then worry about step two, and step three. And there is a great deal of fear that what is going on in Afghanistan is going to be replicated in Iraq. And some of that is a success story but in terms of the empowering of women and the roles of women some of that is a couple steps back from what we want as the ideal. But in terms of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are works in process. There’s a lot to be frustrated about, but there is a lot to be proud of as well. So we hope to look at the positive, and to accentuate that, and to say to the leaders of Iraq, this is what you need to build on. This will get you here, and you have to have a role for women. They’re the greater part of your population. And you have to have education programs and health care programs specifically for women. Not to keep women down, but to empower women. We visited a police academy where women were being trained to be part of the police squads and this is an important role of authority for women. And some of the women had expressed frustration to us that their program was going to be cut. And so we confronted the leader of the program right then and there and said, “these women, are they going to be guaranteed jobs?’ And we sort of forced him to say ‘yes.’ And we heard from some of them later, when we left, that they had been given positions where they had to go out on top of a tower to supervise traffic, and the men were objecting to that because they could not have a woman who was higher than they were. So they had to be taken down and given another job, but at least they had a job. So it’s going to take a lot of supervision on the part of the CPA to ‘hold their feet to the fire.’ That’s not literally! And to make sure that women are given a role, and we’re not just shuffling that aside to deal with at a later time. We want them to have real jobs as soon as possible.

KG: It seems like a lot of these concerns grow out of the growing social and political influence that conservative clerics have in Iraq. Did women feel free to talk to you at all about the role of Islam in limiting women’s roles and restricting women’s rights in their society?

IRL: We did not want to force women to be a situation where they would be endangering themselves and their family members, so we tried to . . .We assumed that we were in a place that was not bugged and that we were free to discuss things, but they have lived in a society, lived under Saddam Hussein’s reign of terror for so long where they could not really trust where they were. They were a little bit guarded with us. And some of them were a little more free to discuss their frustrations than others. Those who were educated in the West, and who have come back. Those who spoke English probably were freer to discuss their frustrations with having to go back to more rigid gender roles. But we did not want to further endanger their lives. Most of them took a great risk in meeting with us because our visit was promoted as being planned for women to take a more active role. They read it in their papers. And just to meet with us was kind of risky. So, if they wanted to bring it up, we were more than willing to discuss that with them, but we did not want to bring it up.

KG: One of the things we hope our conference will bring out is some of the experience that the United Nations and other international women’s NGOs have had in empowering women in other regions of the world, other post conflict zones such as former Yugoslavia, East Timor. In what ways can we share the successes of those experiences with Iraqi women? Do you see this as an important goal?

IRL: I think definitely these international organizations have a lot to gain themselves by participating in Iraq. And Iraqi women will gain great insights by having these organizations have a stake in the developing of democratic institutions. I think what is different in Iraq than in other countries where these international organizations have had a role in empowering women is the role of religion where it is just so difficult to overcome. And we have to find creative ways to work within the system and not without it, but within it, or these institutions will never take hold. And that makes it more challenging, more difficult, to live with the clerics who are issuing orders that are not in the framework of Jeffersonian democracy. And it’s difficult for us to accept that is the way that society works in certain sections. These international organizations are very flexible. They are attuned to the nuances of every culture and society and religion. And we hope that we can bring them all back and they can be a real force for change in a subtle non-challenging, non-threatening way. And we want them back, we want international coalitions to be rebuilt in Iraq. It will be a win-win situation. The women of Iraq will win and these institutions will win as well because they’ll be enriched by the wonderful culture that is in Iraq.

KG: We were wondering also if you have considered appointing an advisory committee that will help you focus on women’s empowerment policies, and funding issues, to assist you in your work as chair of the subcommittee on the Middle East and central Asia?

IRL: That’s a great suggestion and we will certainly keep that in mind. One of the things we did in our 8-person Congressional delegation is that we assigned ourselves topics to work on, and I’m focusing on literacy, and along with Congresswoman Sue Kelly in New York who has done a great job in securing 14,000 dictionaries that can be translated from English to Arabic and other languages spoken in the area. And this has been an incredible project that she has undertaken. Others have undertaken the project of health care, and they are linking up their local US hospitals with medical training for the women in Iraq, to get them certified as nurses, doctors, and paraprofessionals. So each one of us is doing something to help the women in Iraq, the needs that we saw there, in the very short time we were there, already we have seen the fruits of our labor, and we’ve had e-mail communications with some of the women we met, and they are anxious to get a lot of these projects moving. I think it was a very successful trip and we hope to build on that. Some of the women we met will be coming to Washington in a special program that our government has set up—over the summer. And we look forward to exchanging views once again to see what has changed from October to the summer months.

KG: That’s great to know that will take place. I have one final question to ask and I want to thank you for your time today, and the information that you’ve share. As you know we’re planning a conference on “Women in Postwar Reconstruction” to take place at Florida International University this March. And I’m wondering what you would like to see come out of this conference? What could be useful for policymakers in Washington?

IRL: I think just holding this conference will be a real eye-opener. It is a great development for the women of Iraq, as well as for the women in our community, and for the whole research community. . . I think there is a lot to be gained from it. First you will make direct contacts with women from Iraq and will find out what their changing needs are. What they need today, a year from now they will need something else. When we were there they told us they needed dictionaries, and we got them dictionaries. They told us they need new technologies for their hospitals, they needed new machines. Maybe they’ll need the training in how to run for office. And they’ll need the training there, in Iraq. We can’t just impose our set of values on Iraq or any country, but will have to work within the system and find out the nuances of that culture, and that religion, and that mindset. I think this kind of conference can go along way toward giving women of Iraq a ray of hope. The women of Iraq want to know that they are not forgotten. That we are not just dealing with men. That they are a vibrant source. They make up the greater bulk of the population. Their literacy rate is very high—the great majority of women are illiterate. So you have to start with the nuts and bolts. Literally start with the ABCs to get to the higher levels. They need such basic things, but more than anything they need encouragement, they need hope, they need a message of solidarity, and I think that a conference like this can send that ray of hope t the women of Iraq. They need it and they deserve it. You’ll provide that lifeline of hope to them

KG: Well, I think YOU will provide that lifeline to them. I appreciate again that you’ve shared information that you’ve gained based on your trip to Iraq, and I’m sure you’ll have future trips there in your role as chair of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and Central Asia.